This comment was left in response to a female referring to the probablility that cuckolding is relatively statistically rare. In all fairness, Sunshine Mary did agree with my idea, so I don’t think she was belittling our plight.
Nevertheless, this comment by Acksiom summarizes quite nicely why some of us think that paternity ideas are such a big deal, and it’s something that any woman inclined to pooh-pooh our concerns should most definitely take to heart:
Girls, imagine there was a 1 in fifty chance you’d go home with the wrong baby from the hospital — 2%. All birthcare providers, for some sci-fi reason, cannot be compelled to use some kind of tracking method, and, well, that’s just the way it is!
Sorry, girls, but you have no other options. The hospitals simply have too much status for you to be able to compel them to behave “more” professionally.
You have to get your kids tested on your own. . .but if you do, and the hospitals find out about it, they’ll probably punish you for it. You’ll suffer socially, be ostracized, lose positions, maybe even get sued, maybe even have your children taken away from you and your marriages broken up.
It’s because culturally, the hospitals are supposed to be in charge of the children, don’t you see? So of course their needs trump yours completely. They know best, so all the weight of society’s power and authority comes down on their side over yours.
And anyways, it’s not like it really matters if they’re really your own biological children, is it? You can and should love them just the same, and if you find out years too late to actually have other real children of your own, you loved those, and they loved you back, right? So what’s the difference, really?
After all, you still know for sure you really do have biological children out there somewhere. . .
. . .unlike we guys whom you’re telling it’s “not really that common”.
But I’d like to change one of the particulars: imagine that instead of chance, it was an active betrayal on the part of your husband that put you through this. He was offered a wild night with one of the nurses in the hospital in exchange for you having to raise somebody else’s kid. The man you love and cherish watched you celebrate every time you told your friends you were pregnant, he hugged and comforted you, knowing the entire time that you’d be changing the diapers and wiping the nose of somebody else kid because he wanted to have a good time.
You know that this happens 1/50th of the time a baby comes home from the hospital, but if you ever even got suspicious, everybody would blame YOU for being so paranoid.
Now, try to tell me that this isn’t a big deal.
Alpha Is Assumed 
Your addition is excellent, Martel; I could have written it myself. I didn’t go that far at the time because I was saving it for later smackdown, but A Post Is Fine Too.
I never will understand why it’s so hard for some women to simply perform the ‘flip the script’ aspect of deceit and legal fuckery against a man.
Is it because there are no real similar situations for women to be placed in to actively contemplate or understand said dilemma?
Because i guarantee you, if and/or when they do find something that works against them.. real or imagined, they come together under the banner of Oprah to fight said inequality. But if that inequality does not exist against their gender and it has no chance of happening for the foreseeable future..
.. if a tree falls in a forest, but a woman wasn’t around to see it.. does the forest even exist?
I’m with M3 on this (as with most things – excellent work, mate). Why the holy hell is such a basic mental exercise damned near impossible to even attempt? There are a few who can – Stingray, JB, et al, and a couple of marvelously aware women I know in person – but they stand out from the millions.
A flip of the genders provides amazing perspective to the most intractably brainwashed. Solipsism actually amplifies the effect. This is an excellent example of it, and one I’ll bookmark for future hamster-skewering.
They can do it, but it doesn’t come naturally. I can think of four basic circumstances under which they do it (and after the skill is developed, they can actually do it well).
1. The need to be that way has been trained into them. Mother & Father Stingray obviously did something right by somehow training her to recognize her natural solipsim and not give it total precedence. Deti seems to be doing it right by his daughter.
So the reason it’s so rare today is that we’re training our daughters in the merits of Girl Power! and not in the value of considering others.
2. Except in certain cases when that’s the “cool” way to be. Women can be incredibly sympathetic to the needs of certain politically correct minorities because everybody else is.
3. They see the pain of another and it really grabs them. Battlefield nurses can be amazingly generous to soldiers in ways that don’t directly benefit them personally.
4. It’s driven home rhetorically. Part of why I highlighted this comment is that it encapsulates the type of approach required to get a woman to see things from another perspective. Men are more likely to be persuaded rationally. Women respond more to a hug on the heartstrings. Once that tug has happened, you’d be amazed how quickly they can drop the solipsim.
But pulling this off is a rare skill for men to have.
>So the reason it’s so rare today is that we’re training our daughters in the merits of Girl Power! and not in the value of considering others.
And the reason we’re doing that is. . .
. . .the economics.
This post by Vox came to mind instantly when i read this..
http://alphagameplan.blogspot.ca/2012/09/emotion-logic-and-dishonesty.html
M3, thanks a ton for that Vox link. I read it when it came out but haven’t been able to find it since.
Regarding vagasel, it’ll be HUGE. Therefore, expect the FDA to take about thirty years to approve it.
>Therefore, expect the FDA to take about thirty years to approve it.
Therefore, what are we going to do about manufacturing and distribution ourselves? Medical tourism seems like the best bet to me.
I’ve got nothing about black markets, but we should also spread the rumor that it makes tall, muscular guys inordinantly attracted to old & fat chicks. It might stop some of the opposition at the source.
I’m just going to say that I don’t think that it comes as easily to them as you believe. JB hashes out a lot of topics in her comment threads, and has multiple posts where she tries to grasp core concepts the rest of the ‘Sphere stopped discussing ages ago.
Stingray has stories of how she was before she submitted to her husband. As does SSM I believe. They all ask for clarification multiple times, and even when they put forth a lot of effort to try and work through their understanding in a post, there’s a load of errors that come with the original post that get reworked and understood after a comment thread.
The benefit is that, once they do grasp a concept and what it means to men, women have the ability to instill those thoughts and understandings with a grace and beauty that is stunning in the contrast it has between the masculine concept and feminine understanding of it. It’s not more true than it was before they took the effort, but the rare women are able to add healthy softness to what would be a stark, hard, rocky truth of the world.
Very important insight, and one I’m addressing directly in my next post (which is proving to be much more difficult than I expected).
But who’s JB?
JB is judgy bitch, yes.
And it’s an insight I wouldn’t know if I hadn’t had the opportunity to interact on comment boards, as well as through private correspondence with a few since I originally came upon the ‘Sphere and was commenting at HookingUp Smart. Most don’t get it, but some will have enough grace to course correct when shown the truth.
JudgyBitch, I expect.
>Why the holy hell is such a basic mental exercise damned near impossible to even attempt?
Because the economics are still against it.
I’m not disputing you, and I have my own theories on the topic (which may well be the same as yours), but please elaborate.
Found it!
http://www.mothering.com/community/t/529619/why
Money Quote:
“We may like to believe that it is our passionately motivated activism which changes the world, but the truth is that it is improvements in science and technology which create the possibilities for large-scale change, and our activism only exploits them as they become available.”
Making them become available is the next step for men’s liberation. We have to increase the size of the pie before people’s behavior will change meaningfully. Fortunately, this is already happening in many ways. I believe the new fiscally sound androsphere businesses are evidence of this and only the beginning. I think the men’s market is going to continue to grow, and possibly very quickly.
What we should be doing next is identifying and targeting acceleration points for this, such as the possibility of providing superior alternative industrial fishing models with lower male death and damage rates. That idea comes in turn from the algorithm of identifying the most dangerous and deadly jobs and linking the men that do them with advances in science and technology.
And then, to reiterate my comment to the previous post, there’s this: http://www.memecenter.com/fun/1888179/winter-is-fleeing-something-worse
If anybody thinks legislation is going to do more, faster and better to haul the paternity fraud issue out into the sunlight, let alone actually start preventing it, than Vasalgel/RISUG, I would really like to hear their reasons why. I’m getting nowhere trying to play devil’s advocate against myself on that one.
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No, he didn’t. He challenged you to deny that it isn’t a big deal, which is an entirely valid interpretation of your statement that it isn’t that common.
You put your foot in your mouth and we smacked you down for it. Now here you are trying to stir up more crap again without saying Uncle and admitting you screwed the pooch first.
So now here you are pre-attacking us with actual false accusation and misrepresentation.
This is just your hamster trying to get your out of being accountable for displaying exactly the kind of thoughtless, dehumanizing bigotry we’re complaining about ITFP.
You should apologize instead of trying to cause more trouble. Your original comment was thoughtless, knee-jerk, blue pill bigotry, and we all know it.
God is not fooled by your prideful lies.
I appreciate the support, but SSM AGREES with me on this. I’m not seeing “prideful lies” here but instead merely an honest misinterpretation.
That comment was not a direct reply to you, and I acknowledged that you agreed with me and linked directly to your comment in the second sentence of the post.
My initial comment was a statement of fact.
It is merely a statement of fact that the cuckoldry rate for married men is 2-3%. My comment was in response to Stingray (another woman), who said that cuckoldry is more common that she thought. In fact, cuckoldry is actually fairly uncommon.
When Martel then said that it was still a big deal, I AGREED with him. When he said we still needed to address it, I AGREED with him. When he suggested some form of mandatory paternity testing, I said that was a good idea.
Acksiom: Perhaps SSM has genuine regret for saying what she said the way she said it, and she DID agree with the need for widespread paternity testing.
The 2% thing may be a statement of fact, but it could leave the impression that the magnitude of the situation is being belittled. However, your reply hit any prospective belittlement out of the park. Even if it were just 1% of the time, your comment pointed out what a massive problem it is.
I don’t agree with SSM on everything, but she’s been incredibly supportive of this blog. From time to time she’s wrong. I have no problem with any errors by anybody being pointed out. However, I try to save “ripping somebody a new one” for those who are on the OTHER SIDE, not for those who merely get something wrong.
I’m big on changing minds using whatever tools are necessary. Sometimes, the most effective and important thing to do is to inflict verbal pain. But sometimes, milder tones are more effective.
Fundamentally, we’re all allies here. In person, people who agree with me often accuse me of being too nice, but then 15 inutes later, the hippie starts spouting stuff that I couldn’t have said better myself, and then my allies congratulate me and want to shake my hand.
Even if she disagreed with me (and she didn’t), pointing that out in a different tone would have done no harm.
Actually, some say 10-40% of children are not the father’s.
https://www.google.com/search?client=safari&rls=en&q=percent+of+children+not+fathered+by+husband&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8
>In fact, cuckoldry is actually fairly uncommon.
And now she’s tripling down on her thoughtless, knee-jerk, blue pill idiocy.
Do you know why, Martel? It’s because you keep going supine supplicator with the girls. You keep kissing their asses, and naturally they therefore assume they can keep getting away with their usual chauvanistic blue-pill bigoted behavior.
They left the topic completely alone until you started sucking up to them about how valuable their contributions were. And what happened after that? They showed up with even more crappy, male-exploiting attitude than before.
That’s not a coincidence, Martel. That’s a consequence.
They knew the score the moment you promoted my comment to a post. They knew you were holding them responsible. And that’s why they had nothing to say. . .until you started kissing up to them again. And then they knew the fix was back in, and they could come rolling right on up in here again, hating.
Not even close. I’ve continued to link to your comment and haven’t back down from it, and I won’t.
Even if somebody doesn’t really *get* a problem is from the deepest depths of their soul, what matters is whether or not they support the requisite solution. SSM does, Stingray isn’t there (yet), but I’ve changed enough female minds over the years (not to brag, but I’m an expert at it) to know when ripping them to shreds is counter-productive.
I hold them no less responsible now than I did when I made your comment a post. I’ve changed my views on nothing. At times I’ve softened my tone, but I haven’t backed down in substance even the tiniest bit.
And after a break for a post or two, I’m going to attack this issue again, and it’s going to focus on it’s more controversial aspects.
Women like Stingray and SSM aren’t perfect, they don’t get it, but they do make a sincere effort to rectify some of the mess we’re in. SSM’s crusade against false rape accusations has been exemplary, and she’s caught hell for it. Somebody like that isn’t going to catch hell from me too unless they fuck up big time, and so far she hasn’t even come close.
>Even if somebody doesn’t really *get* a problem is from the deepest depths of their soul, what matters is whether or not they support the requisite solution.
When exactly did everybody else authorize you to decide that for us? Because I don’t recall myself or anyone else ever doing so.
I’m also still waiting for either of you to explain why exactly successes in one area should excuse ackowledgement of failures in others.
If there’s one thing that’s absolutely clear about this, it’s the SSM is either deliberately and intentionally not understanding just how bigoted and offensive her insistence that ~2% cuckoldry is “uncommon”, or is just too fundamentally bigoted and immature to do so.
If she was the kind of person you describe, and understood what she was trampling on, she wouldn’t keep:
SHOVING HER FINGERS IN THE BLEEDING INFECTED EMOTIONAL WOUNDS.
“When exactly did everybody else authorize you to decide that for us? Because I don’t recall myself or anyone else ever doing so.”
You’re obviously free to believe whatever you want, but if somebody supports what I support, even if I support it more strongly, I consider them to be an ally.
“I’m also still waiting for either of you to explain why exactly successes in one area should excuse ackowledgement of failures in others.
“I’m also still waiting for either of you to explain why exactly successes in one area should excuse ackowledgement of failures in others.”
When somebody’s in partial agreement but partial disagreement, that makes them a partial ally. I’ve found it counter-productive to treat decent women who basically agree the same way I’d treat Amanda Marcotte. Furthermore, when somebody’s right about something, it shows they have at least some common sense (an unfortunately rare trait). This means that it’s easier to bring their thoughts more in line with your own in other areas.
I think SSM is probably underestimating the frequency of cuckolding, but whether or not it happens 1% or 40% of the time, my solution would make that percentage lower. If it happens at all, it’s too much. SSM agrees.
So, basically, if it might cost you the support of potential female allies, you’ll sell your fellow men and boys out in a heartbeat.
You don’t respect our feelings either. All you care about is what the women think of you.
I can’t make it any more explicit how painful and depersonalizing it is to watch you both urinate in our upturned victim’s faces like this.
SInce we’re not potential female allies, our feelings clearly don’t matter to you at all. You care more about SSM’s possible assistance in the future than you care about the men and boys her behavior is hurting
RIGHT NOW IN FRONT OF YOU.
I define “selling out” as refusing to take the necessary steps to solve the problem. I haven’t done that, and I won’t.
Like it or not, female suffrage is a reality. Therefore, women’s opinions matter.
I’m sorry about your pain, but my goal here is to solve the problem of men getting duped and screwd over through fraudulent paternity. When somebody supports me in this, they’re on my side.
I’m not urinating in anybody’s face, I’m doing what I can to solve the problem, and that includes getting female allies.
You’re obviously hurting, and I hope you heal. But that’s beyond my power; what I can do is to help promote ideas that are going to prevent such pain in the future.
To use a quote of mine that Deti likes a lot: “Feelings matter. Solutions matter more.” I’m doing what I think is right, and I mean no offense. If you choose to take offense and want to also rip into me for it, that’s your choice.
And yet, when I was trying to get some discussion of solutions going earlier, all you did was try to be funny.
Odd how that works. Odd how you turn to talk of how ‘Solutions matter more than feelings’ when it’s men’s feelings and women’s solutions, but behave as though feelings matter more than solutions — ‘we must convince women with rhetoric over reason’ — when it’s women’s feelings and men’s solutions.
Odd.
@Acksiom
“Odd how that works. Odd how you turn to talk of how ‘Solutions matter more than feelings’ when it’s men’s feelings and women’s solutions, but behave as though feelings matter more than solutions — ‘we must convince women with rhetoric over reason’ — when it’s women’s feelings and men’s solutions.”
Considering female power in our current society. Shall we not use their psychology to our advantage? Surely this quest for power is a means to achieve justice for men no?