Framed

Not unlike every other blue-pill teenager in America, the high school I attended was uniquely depraved.

I started noticing that what I was experiencing in my community had nothing to do with what was happening everywhere else even before high school.  We were working class, but Eric was somewhere between working class and “white trash”, the dirty poor kid who wore an AC/DC tee-shirt for our third grade class photo.

In elementary school, the popular kids made fun of Eric (who was actually kind of a prick), and I found an odd sort of comfort in this,.  Then one day in eighth grade, I learned that Eric had sex with one of the popular girls who had made fun of him in elementary school.  Fortunately, although Shannon was the cause of my first case of oneitis three years prior, I was well into my second case of oneitis with Laura so this incident caused no heartbreak, just confusion.

In high school, from freshman to senior year my social rank progressed from hopeless dork to average, but I never got anywhere with the ladies.  On one hand this bugged me, but on the other hand I knew that something was wrong with everybody I went to school with.

You see, my situation was unique in that I was a guy who was “going places” in a high school full of girls who had no more ambition in life than to attend community college or wait tables at Denny’s.  Being working class girls themselves, they simply couldn’t appreciate a guy like me who was smart and presented value greater than the ability to peel out of the parking lot real loud.  When I got to college, a prestigious school in a nearby state that nobody in my high school even considered attending, then I would be appreciated, there the women would see my worth.

So I got to college and things improved dramatically.  In high school, hot girls hardly even talked to me, but now I had a perky little hottie named Linda who would have lunch with me, hang out even sometimes at night, and ask my advice on all sorts of stuff.  She rejected me pretty harshly when I tried to take things in a romantic direction, but at least she still wanted to be friends.

After I gave up on Linda, I found Tracy.  Tracy didn’t flat out reject me, she just told me that it wasn’t the right time, that she was pretty sure she’d break up with Bill any week now.  Before she broke up with Bill she spent a wild weekend with Steve (who went to a nearby state school), but I was always just this close.  She let me rest my hand on her thigh once when we were watching a movie.

It was a confusing time.  My Thirst for Knowledge didn’t inspire these intelligent women to like me quite as much as I expected, and I couldn’t help but wonder why all these women in whom I had no interest kept throwing themselves at me.  It also seemed weird that sometimes when I actually started liking one of the girls who liked me that they suddenly lost interest.  The only exceptions seemed to be when I was too drunk to be myself.  Why did they only want me when I didn’t give a damn about whether or not they liked what I was saying and just cornered them into a kiss?  They must have had really low self-esteem.  So low that when I’d treat them respectfully later while sober, they’d get bored.

Yet I just knew that there was somebody out there for me, a woman who would value me for who I really was.  After all, I had been assured repeatedly that there was something wrong with all the women who were turning me down, that no girl in her right mind could ever turn down a guy like me.

And didn’t they have a point?  Each and every case of oneitis turned out to have some serious psychological issues.  Captain Save-A-Ho is attracted to the wrong kind of woman, so as soon as I find some women who aren’t suffering from low self-esteem, I’d be golden.

The Seven Cities of Gold turned out to be in Europe.

Before heading to Europe, I made two promises to myself.  First, I was not going to turn into some sort of asshole.  Second, I was going to get this crap solved.

I started on the plane to Madrid.  It was a relatively empty flight, I flirted with the only attractive girl there, she gave me her number, but that fizzled out.  I hit on Ana, the girl I met in Germany a couple of years earlier who was kind enough to show me around the city.  She turned me down, but I kept seeing her because I didn’t know anybody else and had plenty of time to kill.

My first night on the town, I hit on at least fifteen women.  Rejection after rejection after rejection.  I went home that night feeling more drained than I think I ever had.

But I kept trying, hitting on women everywhere.  Soon enough I was somehow doing something right and made out with more women than I could count, even including Ana (after I bought her a rose from some lady walking through the bar).  Still, I couldn’t ever get with them outside of the place we met.  Eventually, I broke through.  My second to last night in Madrid, I had a one-night stand, and the next night Ana finally gave in all the way.

I traveled across the continent having success in places like Lisbon, Athens, and Budapest but getting nowhere in party spots like Ios or Alicante.  My journey ended in Paris, where I had more success with women than I knew how to handle.

And all the while I was just being myself.

I got back to the states, had a couple of random successes, but within a year I was back to being a very low beta.  I was the same guy who stole women right from under their boyfriends’ noses, but in Chicago, Dallas, or wherever else, I was once again a total schlub.

Obviously, just being myself wasn’t cutting it.

The Blue Frame

Deti has taken on the role of defending the guys out there who for whatever reason just don’t get it.  When a man finally wakes up and actually does get it, he’s likely from women and traditionalists (as well as natural Alphas) something similar to this:

Well, DUH! All you had to do was look around you. All you had to do was see what was working for other boys and men, and emulate that. Why couldn’t you see what was so clearly going on all around you? Why couldn’t you figure out what was attractive and what wasn’t? Why couldn’t you just be masculine? Why didn’t you ignore what those authority figures were telling you? It’s your own fault for listening to people who clearly didn’t know what they were talking about.

Deti lists many of the tangible reasons why a man might believe otherwise like bad advice from parents and cheesey ballads.  Nevertheless, as every young man hears about the seductive powers of niceness, he also encounters innumerable reasons to not believe the BS he’s being fed.  Every guy sees girls lust after the badboy but millions of us simply won’t believe that that’s what women really want.

And the reason for this is framing.  Pick-up scenarios and rhetorical discussions have frames.  More importantly, so do mindsets.

We all encounter evidence that could potentially either support or refute our beliefs.  However, very few of us flip from libertarian to monarchist to Democrat to fascist merely because we’ve seen a John Stossel documentary, then read some neo-reactionary website, then watched MSNBC for an hour, and then sat through Triumph of the Will.  We listen to and absorb the facts we like and discount or rationalize away those we don’t.  That’s not to say that there’s no objective Truth, there is.  However, in our heads (not the real world, mind you), what matters most of all is our vision (as Sowell would call it), the mental frame through which we view the world.

If we encounter evidence that contradicts our vision, it won’t matter.  Largely because the message Deti describes got through to me before anything else, everything that contradicted what I had been told simply didn’t count.

Shannon banged Eric in eight grade, it didn’t make sense, so I ignored it.  Yes, as a bookworm I wasn’t what most of the girls in my high school were naturally inclined to find attractive, but I simply refused to notice that a guy two years older than me who set the curve in calculus and went to the University of Michigan had women clawing each others’ eyes out to get with him.

Guys who’ve successfully avoided the friendzone would have seen  my relationship with Linda as a abject failure, but considering she was the first hot babe I got much of any attention from, I saw it as evidence that being kind and understanding was the best way to get noticed by a woman.  Tracy did have issues with self-esteem, it simply didn’t register that other women I liked who had plenty of confidence treated me the same way.

In Spain, I didn’t notice that I couldn’t “seal the deal” because relative my previous failures, getting lots of make-out sessions was a definite step forward.  Yes, I was being myself, but myself at the time happened to be an exotic foreigner who spoke the language well and who had become incredibly comfortable talking to random women in settings that make others feel insecure.  I was never Alpha in the Tucker Max sense in that I was never obnoxious or ordered women to degrade themselves, but I was Alpha in the sense that I was bold and gave out DHV’s just for being able to hold a decent conversation.

But what sunk in most out of all the women I met was Ana, the girl who kissed me after I bought her a flower and who gave in only after I spent lots of time with her.

I stuck to my original goal of never becoming an asshole.  I remained a “good guy” but framed myself into believing this to be the root of my successes as opposed to something that supplemented other traits that were what turned the women on.  By the time I had gotten to Paris, I had had at least some degree of sexual contact with women from more countries than most Americans can name, I had been to wherever the tourists I met had come from or were going so I had infinite interesting things to talk about, I could converse with German, French, or Spanish-speakers in their native tongue (which impressed even Americans and Australians), I knew the city well and could serve as a guide, I was friends with the staff where I was staying so had ample social proof, and I was beaming with confidence.

But when whatever woman grabbed me close and said, “Wow, you are such a good guy,” that was what stuck in my brain because that fit into my frame of women being attracted to goodness.  It didn’t register that my final conquest kept teasing me for being a womanizer.  I thought she liked me because I was so good at convincing her I wasn’t a womanizer.

I’m convinced that my “goodness” did in fact play a role in getting these women to like me even more after they got to know me, but were it not for my ideal Alpha frame they never would have gotten to know me in the first place, at least not to the extent that they would actually appreciate my “higher” qualities.

But because of my flawed frame, my blue-pill vision, I returned to the States falsely assuming that women were attracted to me because I was such a good guy, not because I was a good guy.  My go-to conversation starters fell flat (what American SWPL can even locate Portugal on a map, much less give a damn what it’s like there?), I was left to drown in my goodness, forever emphasizing that traits that merely supplemented what chicks used to dig that was no longer the case.

Beneath the Facts

Deti accurately describes how our feminized society creates the mental frame in boys and young men into thinking that behaviors that destroy their chances with women are actually those that will bring them success.

Yes, the frame is crap.  Yes, each and every blue-pill guy has seen enough to realize that the frame is crap.

But a mindset is an extremely difficult thing to change, and when somebody’s been taught to believe something for their entire lives, every piece of evidence that contradicts their vision will somehow be discounted.  His high school is somehow weird (even though everybody they know in other schools goes through the same stuff), the girl who turned him down sophomore year attempted suicide five years later (even though the girl who rejected him junior year was perfectly stable), college girls are too superficial–wait until they enter the real world.  Young professional women don’t have their priorities straight yet, give them a few years to settle down.  Small town/big city/American/etc. women are too superficial/provincial/etc., it’s better in the city/small towns/overseas/etc.

Obviously, some women actually notice goodness, and geography makes a difference.  Fluency in French will excite some women and bore the hell out of others.

Nonetheless, wimpiness is frowned on everywhere.  Some women prefer the dude who gives the pencil-necked geek a wedgie.  Some women prefer the dude who kicks that dude’s ass for giving the geek a wedgie.  Some women will prefer whoever wins the fight between the two of them.

But none prefer the pencil-necked geek.

And that’s true everywhere.

There Is Another

Red-pill and blue-pill are both frames in terms of what’s the most effective approach for men in their relations with women.  It’s not about what’s right or wrong, it’s simply about what is.  We don’t change men’s minds by spouting out facts and studies, we re-frame the very way such facts and studies are processed.

In Deti’s more recent post, he alludes to the other, even more pernicious aspect of blue-pill framing:  morality.  Time permitting, I’ll address that in the very near future.

In the meantime, I think it’s important to recognize that we all have blind spots.  At some point in our lives, all of us just didn’t get it in some way or another.

When we remember how we were able to address those blind spots within ourselves we’ll be much better equipped to help relieve other men of theirs.

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40 Responses to Framed

  1. Pingback: Framed | Manosphere.com

  2. Outlaw says:

    Great post, Martel

    Your insight that women are attracted to a “good GUY” as a opposed to a “GOOD guy” (as blue-pill moralists and some traditionalists believe women are/should be attracted to) is one of the best I’ve read yet in the Manosphere.

    Do you have any suspicions why some traditionalists seem to be opposed to (Vox Day Scale) deltas, gammas and even omegas learning Game of any sort? I’ve seen Deti go for several rounds with Zippy Catholic on Zippy’s website; Zippy seems to be the sort that believes that if you hadn’t found out the truth about human nature in the middle of what are normally people’s college years, you don’t deserve to know. Well, with Christian Traditionalists like THAT, no wonder the Christian Community is screwed; they need all the good men they can get, but won’t lift a finger to help create them and belittle the attempts of socially unsavvy members to try to better themselves.

    Another traditionalist that Deti has sparred with on Free Northerner and JustFourGuys.com is Aquinas Dad: A Catholic Traditionalist who seems honestly willing to help men improve themselves (if his posts can be believed) but doesn’t seem to want to admit that women are attracted to Masculinity first; Good Morality and Godliness being a somewhat distant second.

    What harm could possibly come from more men learning the truth?

    • deti says:

      Outlaw:

      ZippyCatholic’s objections to Game are grounded in morality. Essentially, his argument comes down to this:

      1. Game is morally corrupt and evil because its foundation is from pickup artistry. Game is specifically designed to get low self esteem women, damaged women, and sluts into bed.

      2. Game’s “good” aspects are inextricably intertwined with the “bad”. You can’t separate them. Thus, no man can practice Game without getting morally corrupted and tainted.

      3. The only way to learn masculinity is from morally upright older men, having it modeled for you, so you can learn it properly. Patriarchy is the only way to learn it. Since that’s gone, there’s really nothing else; and nothing can be done to teach younger men until a patriarchal system returns. I know it sucks, but there’s nothing that can be done about it, so these men will either “get it” or be casualties of a failed, fallen system.

      4. It’s not the job of the church to teach masculinity. The church’s job is to teach faith doctrines, administer the Sacraments, and provide fellowship to the faithful. (This I actually agree with. Look at the abject failures of “ministries” like Focus on the Family and Family Life Today when they try to teach masculinity. One of the prime reasons they fail at it is that they ask women to help with it; or they allow women to do the work. Women cannot teach boys how to be men.)

      Zippy’s position isn’t so much that men who don’t learn this stuff “don’t deserve to know”. His position is more “well, sorry you didn’t learn it, but that’s just how it is. You’ll just have to pick it up the best you can in dribs and drabs from men who are willing to show you (but not from Roissy).

      • Martel says:

        I haven’t debated Zippy on this, but in other discussions I’ve found him downright condescending and obnoxious. He continually “refuted” my points with a variation of “I’ve gone over this 200 times before” and then sent links to masses of blog posts, none of which actually addressed my points (at least the first 7-8 out of 30).

        Vox can also be obnoxious but at least he backs up what he says by directly addressing you (and on this issue at least I agree with him). Zippy merely dodges while claiming he’s doing it because he’s so much smarter than you.

      • Outlaw says:

        ZippyCatholic: The Rick Santorum of the Christian Manosphere.

        (Sorry, but I can’t resist!)

        Dear Lord, some of my co-denominationalists disgust me. But anyways, thanks for the clarification, Deti! I’ll try to give Aquinas Dad a bit more benefit of the doubt, but I wish he would get around the finishing his book and publishing under his real name; over at Free Northerner he’s claimed to have lived quite the “Christian Alpha” life, but since this is the Internet, almost anyone can claim to be anyone they wish when they post under a pseudonym.

        Deti, I like your points over at JustFourGuys.com that Aquinas Dad’s suggested organizations (for us Catholic Men, at any rate) did good work in and of themselves, but do little or nothing to help men understand the opposite sex, which is the one saving grace of the PUA community and writers like Athol Kay and Rollo Tomassi, among others.

        I’ll always have the highest respect for Vox Day, whom I believe did some of the best initial work by introducing the Manosphere to many Christians, and in doing so threw ropes to many men. Still, I do wish he could post more on self-help topics these days.

      • Martel says:

        Zippy strikes me as what Santorum would be like after some heavy testosterone injections. The same sanctimoniousness but with less whiny smarminess but more obnoxious aggressiveness.

        Which makes me wonder if gamma could use a subcategory. Gammas are feminized males and are typically manboobish and whiny. Others think like women but act more like men. Pastor Driscoll springs to mind. He’ll use a deep thundering voice and get in your face to bully you into believing that everything masculine about you (save your ability to make $$$ for your wife) is pure evil.

        Just a thought.

        Regarding Vox, I most definitely respect him, I just don’t always like him. The former is more important, of course, and I don’t discount anything good you have to say about him.

    • deti says:

      Aquinas Dad claims to be a Catholic theologian and teacher. He claims that he goes around teaching young men and women about relationships.

      His argument is that Game teaches nothing new; it’s just repackaged wisdom from generations past from authors and thinkers like Shakespeare, Carnegie, etc. Game is just BCAYCDI (“Be Confident And You Can Do It”). Masculinity is really just the Four Cardinal Virtues: Courage, Justice, Prudence and Temperance. His argument is that men don’t need Game; they need to learn and integrate old-school masculinity into their lives.

      My response is simply that if Game is nothing new; then there should be no objection to learning the “good” parts and discarding that which one doesn’t need. I give Christian men more credit than Zippy does; I think a man with a good moral education can discern what’s morally right and what’s not, and act accordingly. No one is teaching the works of Dead White European Men anymore, because raciss and sexiss and homophobia and bigotry. So where are men going to learn masculinity? You can’t just plop “How to Win Friends and Influence People” in his lap and say “read it, and live long and prosper”. You have to teach it, show it, model it, demonstrate it. You can’t just say “Just be confident”. You have to show a boy HOW to be confident. And the way you do that is you show him something he’s good at, and have him do that (but not video games).

      Aquinas Dad’s argument amounts to little more than “Just be confident. Be handsome. Be attractive. Don’t be unattractive”. That won’t do. Men need MORE than that.

    • deti says:

      Another thing about AD’s claims is that you really can’t use the Church or Catholic organizations to reach men and women on the truth about intersexual relationships. No one takes the Church seriously on these things. People stopped listening to the Church on these topics long ago. Aquinas Dad talks much about Catholic theology and doctrine. Thing is, even most Catholics don’t understand, much less adhere to or observe, Catholic theology and doctrine. I”ve yet to meet a Catholic woman who hasn’t confessed to using hormonal birth control at some point in her life. I know plenty of divorced and “remarried” Catholics. The RC church in North America has a 25% divorce rate. One in four Catholic marriages fails. The RC church hands out annulments like candy.

    • Martel says:

      Deti summed up the specific arguments pretty well, but I think some of it results from a fallacy common on the political left.

      Regarding both gun control and national defense, lefties have a very hard time comprehending how strength can reduce violence instead of increase it. Owning a gun increases an individual’s capacity to kill, true. However, just because somebody has an increased capacity to kill, it doesn’t necessarily mean they’re actually going to kill anybody. What might happen instead is that others are discouraged from messing with them.

      Game increases an individual man’s capacity to engage in sexual immorality. However, just because you can, it doesn’t mean you WILL.

      So, not unlike the left that wants to reduce violence by decreasing individuals’ ability to be violent, churchians want to reduce sexual immorality by decreasing men’s ability to be sexually attractive. But just like gun laws ensure only that criminals have guns, restricting Game knowledge ensures that only immoral cads know how to make women tingle.

      Instead of solving the problem by enhancing the masculine power of good men, they want to reduce masculine power overall. After all, men can’t really be trusted, can they? We’re the degenerates who need to learn how to be Spiritual from our women, even Christians.

      I might do a post on this.

      • Outlaw says:

        Thanks for the enlightenment, Martel.

        Good analogy comparing Game Knowledge and Firearms Use; just because bad men misused the skills from either in the past is no reason to proscribe either to the rest of men.

        Vox Day has mentioned in the past many that many Church (Catholic, Protestant and Otherwise; rumor is that the Eastern Orthodox are holding their own) leadership positions are filled with Gamma Male (Mama’s Boys) types these days, even if the congregations and denominations themselves are relatively traditionalist/conservative and theologically orthodox.

        Wonder how much truth there is to his observation.

      • Martel says:

        It seems true to me. I’ve written about the church scaring away masculine men here, and it makes sense that if they’re scaring real men away from the pews that they’d do an even better job of scaring them away from the pulpit.

        And look at some of the more prominent churchian leaders. Joel Osteen, for cryin’ out loud. What man is going to see THAT as a leader?

      • Stingray says:

        I might do a post on this.

        Yes, please.

  3. eric says:

    Quick thing. Really enjoyed this post, but noticed a tiny typo. Thy should be thigh.

  4. Eric says:

    Good stuff. I’ve had a similar mindset. It’s why I believe Nietzsche ought to be required reading early in the blue to red pill conversion. You don’t need to stick with Nietzsche, since living Nietzsche may hurt you in real life, but the perspective helps to break the mental chains.

    “Red-pill and blue-pill are both frames in terms of what’s the most effective approach for men in their relations with women. It’s not about what’s right or wrong, it’s simply about what is.”

    Keoni Galt wrote a good post about this: http://hawaiianlibertarian.blogspot.com/2014/01/praxeology-truth-of-game.html

    • Martel says:

      Great Hawiian link. Thanks for that.

      I’m ambivalent about Nietzsche. He can be incredibly fun to read (at least for a philosopher), and you can almost feel him making testosterone pump through your veins.

      At the same time, he explicity rejects Christian morality. So to me, to use my analogy with the gun in my response above, Friedrich seems to not only advocate that we own a gun and spend lots of time at the range learning how to handle it, but also that we should actually USE a gun in an aggressive manner to get what we want.

      We should all be familiar with him and his writings (and it’s been a long time since I’ve read him in any depth), for he might inspire the morally aware to grow a testicle. However, for somebody without a strong moral foundation, he could help rationalize some pretty destructive behaviors.

      Not unlike Nebuchadnezzer (who also proclaimed a variation of “God is dead”), Nietzsche went insane. There’s a lesson in that.

      • Outlaw says:

        Good points on Nietzche; any comments on Ayn Rand? Economically and Politically she seemed pretty sound, but her personal life was a nightmarish mess, especially after she achieved “superstardom” after the publication and sales of Atlas Shrugged and the brief rise and fall of the “Objectivist” cult and Nathaniel Branden Institute. Seems like Mr. Branded was something of a Gamma himself.

      • Martel says:

        She got too full of herself. As brilliant as she was, she made herself into some sort of goddess, claiming that the only philosopher to whom she owes any debt is Aristotle, that Atlas is undoubtedly the greatest work of fiction EVER, etc.

        By most accounts she died an extremely bitter old woman, which is sad considering how many phenomenal insights she had. I still consider Ellsworth Touhy to be one of literature’s best villians, Fransisco’s money speech is fantastic (despite the misinterpretation of 1 Timothy 6:10), her comparison of the moon landing with Woodstock was amazingly prescient, and I could go on.

        But it has been declared, “you shall set no other gods before Me”, and Rand did that and how, herself being that god. Sad, but we can still benefit from the good stuff she did.

  5. theasdgamer says:

    What do you tell the older guy who is a traditionalist and only wants sex in the context of marriage? Cane Caldo and Zippy are very unhelpful. I have heard that women will find you unattractive if you don’t push for sex at least by the second date. Can you get by by sexualizing the convo instead of pushing for sex? Or maybe filter out those who aren’t looking for marriage via some dating site? Surely there are women who are also traditionalists.

    Younger guys (20’s and 30’s) will have a different set of circumstances than older guys (40+). Younger guys can attend conservative colleges like Bryan, Hillsdale, and Azusa Pacific to find wives, but that’s likely not an option for older guys. What’s an older guy to do?

    • Martel says:

      It looks like I’ll be leaving the country. I don’t know if it’s God, bad luck, or I’m just burned out, but every woman I meet strikes me as a project for Captain Save-a-Ho within the first five minutes of talking to her, not a decent prospect for a wife.

      What seems to spark interest though (probably in addition to my obvious indifference) is a lot of the basic Game framing techniques like body language, playful negging. I do nothing overtly sexual, but initially they seem to escalate.

      Were I inclined to move things forward, would it maintain or enhance attraction if I framed my disinclination to bang them as a standard that she’s got to live up to? I suspect that saying something like “I’m Christian so I’m not having sex with you unless you somehow trick me into marrying you. If you’re not up to it, there are plenty of other easy lays out there” could come across as Alpha if said correctly. Obviously, a weak “I want to but I really can’t” would come across as hopelessly beta, but “Sorry babe, that’s the rules. I’m not going there” might be Alpha.

      Might. I’m not sure because I haven’t gotten there yet.

  6. Farm Boy says:

    I wish that I read this when I was a teen. The question is: how to spread the word?

  7. Farm Boy says:

    Perhaps much of the problem is that women bask in the fact that they are ‘sugar and spice and everything nice”, while they semi-secretly like bad boys. They can’t let this knowledge become mainstream, as their house of cards would fall.

  8. Farm Boy says:

    What harm could possibly come from more men learning the truth?

    That depend on whose perspective you are taking. Women seem to like things the way that they are. Society is stable and operating to their benefit for now. If more fellas learn the truth, what will happen?

    • Martel says:

      Tearing down illusions may not be harmful in any objective sense, but it can hurt like hell. Our illusions become an intrinsic part of who we are; the prospect of letting them go can be as terrifying as death.

  9. Farm Boy says:

    bore the hell out of others

    Being boring is one of the seven deadly sins from the perspective of modern women.

  10. deti says:

    Great post, Marel. It’s an honor to be quoted so extensively here.

  11. Farm Boy says:

    Our illusions become an intrinsic part of who we are; the prospect of letting them go can be as terrifying as death.

    This must be doubly hard on chicks as they age, as they typically have more illusions than the normal guy due to the fact that they were never humbled in their younger years.

    • Martel says:

      As much as it can suck for us realizing how stupid we were for most of our lives, we’ve got far more margin for error in that older men are more attractive, etc.

      The midlife crisis has traditionally been a male thing, but expect it to become a “gender-neutral” phenomenon.

      • deti says:

        Men have more margin for error also because once they come into some level of attractiveness, they have more time and keep their attractiveness longer, as a general rule. Women skyrocket to attractiveness from age 16 and peak at around 22 or 23; then begin a steep decline which usually collides with The Wall at around 30.

        Men start a slow gradual climb in attractiveness from about, oh, age 24 or 25, then peak out in the late 30s, then get on a plateau, and a long slow decline which doesn’t start a steep decline until the early 50s.

        I know you know this; it’s just for the benefit of any noobs.

  12. peregrinejohn says:

    Not to be yet another echo, but this is indeed an excellent post. And deti is, as ever, a beacon of light in this ridiculous world. He is entirely right about the… well, the inability of fish to understand what this “water” thing is people are always on about. I was one of them, seeing glitches in the Matrix but trying very hard to follow the program I was assured led to happiness. Though most of my anger upon waking was directed at the lies themselves, I sometimes kick myself at the thought of was lost, and what could have been.

    This reminds me: in a couple weekends I’ll be spending some time with a bunch of men who want to be godly, manly, fully-formed Christians, and who have largely been tainted with Fireproof and similar dreck, muddying the waters pretty badly. My problem is going to be not exploding at the concentration of self-flagellation I am sure to encounter from honest souls who deserve better than their society, and usually their wives, have shown them. If I can control my disgust I’ll have the opportunity to begin something similar to what another awake man did in his church, leading a group of truth seekers toward their unplugging and fulfillment. Trouble is, I can’t remember who that other guy was! I remember he had all sorts of trouble and would have begun things differently had he known, but I can’t seem to find him to learn from his trailblazing. Does anyone here remember him?

  13. Stand Watie says:

    @peregrinejohn –

    I think you’re thinking of Joseph of Jackson:
    http://josephofjackson.wordpress.com/

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  17. theasdgamer says:

    “I was Alpha in the sense that I was bold and gave out DHV’s just for being able to hold a decent conversation.”

    Seriously? Merely being able to hold a convo demonstrates HV? How the standards have fallen! No wonder 20-somethings give logistical info to an old fart like me when I cold approach and talk with them.

    • Martel says:

      I thought I was clear (but maybe I wasn’t), but I was referring to conversation in other languages.

      Americans have a reputation for being stupid, insular, and boorish, so one who speaks anything other than English decently can garner some pretty positive attention. When speaking to a European in their language, if they found out I spoke another one too, it impressed the hell out of them.

      With native English speakers, they would observe me talking to people they couldn’t talk to. I would be their guide, translator in stores and restaurants, and I could talk about them right in front of them without them understanding what I was saying (few things get the hamster spinning quicker).

      An American in America MIGHT be impressed if they hear you speak Spanish in the burrito joint, but for the most part they don’t give a damn. Over there, it makes me the link to the country their visiting, frames me as exotic and worldly, etc.

      • Outlaw says:

        Just curious Martel, but what languages can you converse in? It’s always cool to be multilingual.

      • Martel says:

        Now: Spanish. Then: Spanish, German, and French.

        I never use the latter two, so when I speak them it’s almost a literal sensation of cobwebs getting cleared away in my brain.

        If I go back to those place, I’m sure they’ll come back, but for now I’ll have to be satisfied with being able to skip some of the subtitles when I watch foreign films.

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