I will say, I thought you were better than this. The grandma in me adds: you should be ashamed of yourself. But I doubt you are.
And in her last sentence (only), she’s right. I’m NOT ashamed in the slightest. I call it like I see it. I don’t necessarily like what I see, but so long as I find it to be the truth, I’m gonna say it. To use another quote:
If I’m wrong, then I’ll pay for it
If I’m right, yeah you’re gonna hear about it
–Michael Anthony/Sammy Hagar/Alex Van Halen/Edward Van Halen, “Don’t Tell Me (What Love Can Do)”
Daisy’s left a lot of comments of late (just go through any of my recent posts and you’ll find at least one), but what really got her goat is my assertion that women need to be trained. Frankly, they do need training, not unlike Navy Corpsmen, horses, acrobats, and plumbers.
She writes that I said that “women are no good unless they are trained, like dogs?” I concede that dogs are of little use without training. On the other hand, untrained women do have their uses, but that’s not what I want our little girls to grow up to be. Yes, really. I mean that.
Nevertheless, a few months back when I was focusing primarily on politics, Daisy also left her fair share of comments and demonstrated to me that her heart is in the right place (again, I mean it). I disagreed with her frequently (examples include here and here), but she remained respectful at all times, so I responded in kind.
I know that I won’t change Daisy’s mind, for one has the same chance of persuading a staunch opponent through just writing as an aspiring young French actress has of landing a starring role if she refuses nudity. I’m sure it can be done, but don’t count on it.
But she is sincere, and she made another comment which demonstrates an important point:
I don’t know who these women are that you write about… but they have no resemblance to me, my mother or my daughter. Its like I am reading about an alien species…
And I’m sure she means it.
Is Queen Hamster at work? Undoubtedly. But sometimes the Hamster has actual facts to work with.
I won’t focus on her mother or daughter (all I know about either is that her daughter is married to a guy with a mom who’s active in the TEA Party), but I think it’s important to show that when Daisy says she has no idea what I’m talking about, she means it.
Daisy is a baby boomer, I suspect from the middle wave. She probably grew up in either the fifties or sixties, before the Sexual Revolution began to completely transform our society.
I don’t know what her family structure was like, but I bet what when she was a girl that the men in her life were masculine and the women were feminine. There were undoubtedly thousands of little things that showed her how men and women act that probably didn’t even register in her conscious mind.
But, like I described in The Red Pendulum, many in her generation falsely assumed that the Chesterton’s fences of traditional gender roles were restrictive and outdated without realizing how they benefited from them. They wanted to overturn the oppressive system without recognizing that revolutions often lead to nothing more than a hefty dose of “meet the new boss, same as the old boss”, or sometimes, “meet the new boss, worse than the old boss.” Like Rousseau, we dislike having to have any fences at all, but there are always fences of one kind or another.
But the type of fence changes gradually. In the documentary Berkeley in the Sixties, women complained how in the early days of the peace movement the men took charge and had the women stick to making coffee and copies. Even the Revolutionary Progressives stuck with tradition at first.
And this hybrid of tradition and innovation at the beginning of a decline accelerates it. To paraphrase something Mark Steyn said at some point, one of the best times to be alive is when a decline starts. You’ve still got the structures that enable you to live in luxury, but you don’t need any of the discipline required to create them. Your parents and grandparents had to toil and wake up every morning at four thirty to build it, but you just get to enjoy it. The more your forebears busted their collective asses, the longer it takes for you to tear down what they’ve built.
Unless you’re mature, you don’t recognize how hard it was to build those building until they’re gone.
At first, to everyone except the morally conscious, the Sexual Revolution must have been a fucking blast. For guys, imagine a time in which women retained their feminine traits (purple shirt appearing at 2:43, two thumbs up: way up), but you didn’t have to marry them to have sex with them. It was probably harder to score a one-night stand, yet you didn’t have to go all out and buy the metaphoric cow to have a blast. They weren’t yet “50 Shades obsessed sluts” and not only provided you with “an abundance of value besides the hole between her legs”, you also got the hole between her legs. Alphas got more, but Betas got some, too. How likely you were to become a decent husband and father still mattered to a twenty year old; spending the next decade “finding herself” was still out of the question.
Women had the chance to experiment a bit, but in the back of their minds the old rules remained. They might put out, but they would never want to be a slut (much less be proud of it). She had the option to pursue a career, but until the 1970’s there was still no shame in an MRS degree. They didn’t feel as pressured into having sex before they were ready, but if they wanted to, they could without severe consequences. To butcher my favorite Joseph Heller phrase, her hypergamy was let into the room, but she still had to act like a lady.
So imagine how difficult it must be for the women in Roosh’s video to admit how anything could possibly be wrong with the fun they were having. They threw off the oppression of the 1950’s and had more fun than any generation probably ever has. How the hell could anybody ever want to go back to the days of Ward and June Cleaver?
Unacknowledged is the devastation wrought by feminism on the black family, and black men and boys in particular. They don’t see any connection between teen pregnancy and the sexual liberation of women (or do they just not see any problem with it). Increased access to abortion was supposed to lead to fewer unwanted pregnancies. How’d that work out?
Do they not see the lonely thirty-five year-old women trolling the bars hoping desperately to catch the attention of the men they so casually dismissed ten years earlier? What about the men who are inundated with sex every minute of every day yet can’t get any themselves? Are modern divorce rates a problem? The “supermom” phenomenon?
There’s also the Abilene Factor for sure; nobody wants to admit that something of which they were so certain and into which they put so much effort could possibly have been destructive, especially when it was so damn much fun.
So it makes perfect sense how a baby boomer who got to benefit from the old order while tearing it down would see the experience of most modern men and women as utterly “alien”. They’ll never have to experience a youth in which so much of what they wanted actually happened.
Is it possible for women of a certain age to understand How Women Turn Men into Pickup Artists? I doubt it, for feminism has changed our society so much that I can’t see how anyone who grew up in a world without it could possibly understand how so much of what was great about their childhoods simply doesn’t exist today. The dating scenes, courtship rituals, and security provided to both men and women from knowing what was expected of them is dead.
Why do I link to stuff like this? Because it works. Do I want it to work? No. Do I think it should work? No. But dammit, no matter how alien it might seem to you, today, in the post-feminist world those pretty babes in the Roosh video created, it works. Like. A. Fucking. Charm.
But in the world of Daisy’s youth, it probably didn’t. I just want to go back to a world in which both men and women could be healthy with each other and not feel like they’re going to war all the damn time.
So Daisy, “I will refrain from using the” phrase go to hell, “but rest assured, I am thinking it.”
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Daisy is one of maybe three people I’ve met in the last year and a half, when I really opened my eyes, that is both respectful and disagrees. Most people instantly get into a shouting match.
Daisy, let me share a few things I’ve learned about women.
Today’s average woman is only good for sex. By this I mean that most men dont care about her career related skills, yet those are all she’s developed. She knows nothing of cooking, cleaning, submission, home making, or child raising.
The average women is only moderately good at a career, at best. They lack the discipline and drive to go places. Most advances they get will be because of their sex and the time they’ve spent there giving them a sense of ‘entitled to advancement.’ A career is just something that lets them go drink or buy fancy things like clothes. It is not a way to build a life they want in their minds.
The average woman would rather browse facebook and marathon watch tv than do anything productive or even go out and experience the world unless a man takes her.
The average woman has no self restraint or discipline. This bleeds over to every area of her life. Self learning, dieting, sexual behavior. You can make a woman want anything, and once wanting it she’ll follow through any plans to make it happen as long as the plans are quick and require no effort on her part. This is why diets fail, why women go into the literary arts, and why I can make out with them in thirty seconds after meeting them and have sex with them that night.
Despite all this, I love women. I just only love the ones that actually act like women
Will some of them ever realize how downright tiresome they can become? A man who knows his own sexual worth doesn’t have to put up with it, and he won’t.
I was at the end of the Baby Boomers (depending on where you draw the line it was within a year or two of the end), And my view of women growing up is about 180 degrees from where it is today – primarily as a result of being much older and dating only young women (18-25). Yes, they need to be trained – many are feral and do not know how to behave in a civilized manner. Fortunately, I like them feral – and use them regularly for that purpose. I used to take the time to try to train them – figuring that I would marry. I gave up on that long ago when it comes to Western (i.e., American women). Today, I figure that if you plan on marrying you have to get out of the US and start with an Asian woman. Now, I train American women for one thing, and that is to make my life more enjoyable – that is their only real use for me.
Women can yell and scream about that (they always have some reason to yell and scream so it might as well be that) but it doesn’t change the facts. Most women try to act like “mini-men” embracing the worst qualities and none of the good (honorable) ones. I don’t blame them for that – it is how they were raised and all they have known. But it doesn’t change the facts. If women want to be treated differently, they have to show a reason to be treated differently. Woman are like a utility for me – I expect them to be there for my needs and to go away when I have other things to deal with.
That is what “feminism” has brought – I treat women just as I treat men – when I have a need, I hire one. My “uses” for women cannot be “paid for” in the US with dollars you have to “pay” with a different currency – but it is still paying. So I give them a “fun time” and they let me use them to take care of my needs. I don’t know why they act so insulted when you show them what they have “fought” for… They are a commodity – nothing special – with a very limited shelf-life. After 25 they have hit their expiry date for me – that doesn’t mean that others may still want them for a while, but for me that is when they have hit their “sell-by” date. But my question is always, “Why would I buy one that is about to expire when I can enjoy the fresh ones for free?”
Men like what men like: pretty women that don’t make their lives hell. Certain folks want us to feel guilty about this. Thank God so many of us don’t.
To add a bit to Leap’s exegesis on the Modern Woman:
The average woman of today is not a virgin and has an N of between 6 and 8 before she gets married. She thinks it’s unreasonable to remain chaste before marriage. She became sexually active in high school.
A significant portion of average women have serious mental health issues. She’s had mental health therapy of some kind. She carries a diagnosis of either depression, or ADHD, or bipolar disorder. She might be on some type of psychiatrist-prescribed medication.
The average woman is overweight by at least 20 pounds, and many more than that.
The average woman’s sexual skills are more advanced than her domestic skills. She’s better at giving a blow job than at preparing a simple three-course meal of a meat, a vegetable and a potato for a family of four.
The average woman is entitled, self-absorbed, selfish, narcissistic, consumerist and materialistic.
The average woman is dull, uninteresting, poorly read, uneducated and intellectually incurious. She thinks the Odyssey is a minivan and Homer is the first name of the dad on the Simpsons, and cannot name three of Shakespeare’s plays; yet knows all about the Kardashians.
But she can name two of Shakespeare’s plays: A Midsummer Night’s Dream, and Romeo & Juliet. Every time.
Ha. Ask her to outline the basic plot of the two plays, though, and watch the “deer in the headlights” look wash over her.
I prefer to expound on how the forest in “Dream” acts in juxtaposition to the forest and call attention to the parallel relationships of Theseus/Hippolyta and Oberon/Tatiana. I then ask if she agrees that the breakdown in Oberon’s relationship symbolizes a rupture in the natural order, or if their reconciliation indicates a form of primal healing that instead creates a deeper strengthening in the Theseus/Hippolyta relationship (after all, Theseus wood Hipplolyta by defeating her in battle).
THAT’S when you get the deer in the headlights look.
And don’t get me started on “Romeo”.
On the other hand, if she’s actually able to answer the question coherently, I might actually have a keeper.
Much Ado about Nothing. 😉 (I especially love the 90s film w/Kenneth Branagh and Emma Thompson in the title roles… they were married at the time, and maybe that’s what broke them up?)
I prefer Woody Allen’s A Midsummer Night’s sex comedy.
“Romeo & Juliet” because it’s so romantic (never mind how harshly the Bard rips into R & J, despite his sympathy for them), and Midsummer for the similar reasons. Stories about “Star-Crossed Lovers” seems to be a form of chick-crack.
I’m not as familiar with “Much Ado”, but in general I’m not as inclined towards the comedies (excepting Midsummer which I could expound upon for hours). Then again, I haven’t given them a good chance for a while.
My favorites are the “problem plays”, those that are more or less structured like the comedies but have dark twists thrown in. These include All’s Well that End’s Well, Troillus & Cressida, the Merchant of Venice, and my number one, Measure for Measure. It’s ostensibly a comedy with all the typical twists and turns, but he wrote it at the same time as Othello, Hamlet, Macbeth, and Lear. He despises most of the characters, but shows a grudging respect for them. The ending almost feels like everything wraps up just a bit too perfectly, and you can tell he did that on purpose (similar effect in All’s Well). It’s almost like an older, wiser, and more bitter Shakespeare ripping into his own earlier plays while paying them homage.
And then there’s Titus Andronicus, which is practice for his later tragedies (Aaron is a warm-up for Iago, Tamora practice for Lady Macbeth) but turns out to just be a massive gorefest with a some really dark humor.
But I really love the guy (Shakespeare). There’s no ending I find happier than Midsummer, no ending more devastating than Lear. And he hits every point in-between, and I don’t think any artist has shown as much insight into human nature before or since.
Interesting. Being respectful gets me more points with yall than it does with certain online-feminists… so there is that.
I can’t help but notice since I was recently roasted alive by feminists for, you know, asking provocative questions… always a dangerous proposition. Follow-up post and explanation HERE, and wouldn’t you know? The troublemakers can’t be bothered to follow up and continue their hell-raising, which makes me wonder if their ire is actually worth ANYTHING AT ALL, or is actually just a fashion-show to impress each other. See line in Van Morrison’s wonderful song WILD NIGHT (since you quote lyrics, I will oblige): All the girls walk by, dressed up for each other. I think that line also sums a lot of online-feminism, its all to grandstand and impress each other, not to make converts (the old wannabe Jesuit in me is always trying), or to become more effective in our work. Does this mean its all over? Since I measure a movement/cause by those two specific measuring-sticks…
Thus, feminism has become something very different than what was intended, which I cataloged in my post about the particular changes I;ve noticed throughout the decades, that I personally enjoy and heartily approve of. If its all “rah rah girls team”–well, I am not much interested.
I will concur that I found the Sexual Revolution to be a blast… The blog-archives of “No Seriously What About the Menz” is long gone, or I would link you to a thread in which I brawled over the seduction of that-guy-based-on-Cameron Crowe in “Almost Famous”–in a thread about what rape is/the rape of men. I foolishly linked to the seduction-clip* and asked (what the hell was I THINKING?) “Now, is THIS rape? Don’t be silly!” … and MEN (yes, choke on it, Martel!) yowled as one voice and whined and whimpered that YES IT WAS RAPE! Cameron Crowe’s deflowering by Anna Paquin is now regarded as a RAPE!!!!!! I was dumbfounded. I was asked accusingly if I would say that if HE WAS A WOMAN? Um, I answered, I took part in several nearly identical incidents, and OF COURSE I would still say that. They hardly knew what to say to me, except to insist that I must have been raped too and didn’t even know it, and Cameron Crowe obviously was too and is now attempting to prettify it out of denial (the deflowering incident is based on his REAL LIFE, and he married the foxy blond sister in HEART, okay? He was a fucking GROUPIE!) I think that is when I figured out that something was up. They really do regard that scene, intended to be sweet and joyous, as a RAPE? Oh dear.
I was nearly traumatized by that, and had a long talk with my spouse over it. I got actually worried. I was informed on the follow-up thread at Genderratic (where they all agreed that it was rape as well, BTW, so it would seem MRAs have adopted the sexual values of the feminists-you-describewithout question) … that in the future this scene will be seen very differently than it was intended (they at least agreed that he did not INTEND it to be REGARDED as rape, in its initial presentation) and will be seen as “problematic” (hate that fucking word) and maybe even excised in later editions. EXCISED FROM AN ACADEMY-AWARD WINNING SCREENPLAY!? That just makes me cry. NO, DAMMIT, IT WAS NOT RAPE, IT WAS A FUN FROLIC in which a boy is playfully thrown down on a bed by three women and he makes some perfunctory protest-sounds.
I can only imagine what they are going to do to Fellini. The mind boggles.
But yes, I see your point, since as I was reading your post, I suddenly thought of ALMOST FAMOUS. You have explained something interesting about why the two generations see that scene so radically differently. I see a stone gas (as the late Don Cornelius would have said), and they see rape, Jesus Christ, what’s WRONG with this picture.
*And by the way… I think the scene has been dropped down the memory hole already. Can’t find it on YouTube, wherein I easily located it before. I did find THIS one, when looking for “Almost Famous Anna Paquin”–I’m surprised they left this one up, since the Kate Hudson character is only 16 in the story… nowadays, this sordid situation would undoubtedly constitute a whole LAW AND ORDER episode.
Feminism, like most other lefty movements, rarely ends up being what it was ostensibly about at the beginning. Sometimes y’all’s hearts are in the right place, but A is A, people are people, and without thoroughly understanding that any movement will end in disaster.
Common sense about what is/isn’t rape is something that’s also gone by the wayside. I vaguely remember the scene, and I doubt he went through anything even closely resembling the trauma of an actual rape. Men and women are different. There are ways that women can unfaily take advantage of men, but it’s not the same as a rusty knife in an alley.
There are some MRA’s out there who want to combat feminism with an equivalent for men: affirmative action for males in college, equal paternity leave, etc. That’s not most of us.
And the reason that we treat respectful disagreement differently than most the feminists is that we’re right and have nothing to fear from reasoned discourse. The more quickly somebody starts screaming, the more likely they’re terrified of having to explain themselves without emotion. This usually indicates an inability to handle reason.
I think you have a lot more in common with all of us than you think.
Uh oh, you’re not a misogynist . . . are you? 😀 (Completely kidding, BTW since you don’t know me at all)
Darnit, I always hit the wrong reply button here. Obviously that was meant for Daisy.
Daisy, I thought your experience was really interesting. Mostly because it’s one that men deal with constantly, every day of our lives. I wrote a post up on it and decided to show an interaction I had on facebook to demonstrate how quickly things devolve when dealing with women currently in their 20’s. I don’t think blogger updates you when a wordpress blog links to you, so figured I’d tell you here.
When this is the type of treatment you get every day for simply being a man whom enjoys discussions of topics and questioning things (which most men do) it really wears on you. It kills a bit of you inside every time someone deny’s your curiosity and says you’re a horrible person. Many men would continue to have a child like curiosity of the world, certainly tempered with an adult’s ability to realistically appraise reality, in order to break it down, understand it, and build something better.
That’s how society was constructed.
But we constantly get denied the ability to do that. We get told we’re misogynists, evil, sexual harassers.
Then you want us to just marry someone, disregard their past, crank out the money to start a family, risk losing the family, AND BUILD SOCIETY ON TOP OF THAT?
I am in moderation, probably due to links. 😛
Sorry, Mitch. Until I’m getting troll-blasted by feministe, my moderation standards are pretty low.
Thank you sir for the linkage and great post. I wish it weren’t true either but it’s the reality we all have to deal with.
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